| Posted on 27-Jul-2003 15:28 GMT by takemehomegrandma | 381 comments (302k)
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Add comment | | BBRV talked very briefly about MorphOS 1.4 on #MorphOS today ...
""yesterday we played a movie, then we open FIVE "Zoom" windows (new 1.4 feature) at differnt zoom levels and then we moved the curser around...alll this while the second desktop was running ImageFX...then we launched the CPU meter [also a new 1.4 feature] and it read between 70 and 95% -- flashing for a second sometimes at 100%...that was all done on a G3""
I asked: "Did TCP and JIT make it into the 1.4 release?"
""JIT yes, TCP/IP no, but license is signed and integration is being done" ... "we might release it without the GUI...we will think about it""
Apparently, there will be a demonstration of MorphOS 1.4 around 11:30 local time. Now, where were those streaming servers again ...
;-)
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 53 of 381 | Posted by -D- (206.100.223.21) on 28-Jul-2003 10:27:30 | In Reply to Comment 47 (DaveP):
DaveP I agree entirely. It's like the M-Benz and BMW drivers would have
far more in common than the BMW would with the Ford driver...
Both technically and by means of concept, M-B and BMW share many
similarities (even the same manufacturers produce most of their components),
although they are obviously not all "exactly" the same automobile. No,
the M-B driver is not also then a BMW driver as well (unless one owns
both) but let's not get too rediculous about this.
Samface, don't be difficult...it's quite a simple concept to grasp.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 54 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.200) on 28-Jul-2003 10:33:06 | In Reply to Comment 51 (DaveP):
You said that a community is about a common interest and that our common interest would be an AmigaOS3.1 compatible OS on modern PPC hardware. That would only be true if we were talking about an "AmigaOS3.1 compatibility on PPC hardware" community, but we're not. We're talking about an *Amiga* community and Amiga does not equal "AmigaOS3.1 compatibility on PPC hardware".
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 55 of 381 | Posted by DaveP (32.106.75.150) on 28-Jul-2003 10:40:50 | In Reply to Comment 54 (samface):
No Samface, remember the definition of community?
the "Amiga" community encompasses those that:
1. Use emulation to run their Amiga applications.
2. Own any Amiga branded kit.
3. Use AmigaDE, AmigaAnywhere
4. etc
So MorphOS users at least fit into 1 and probably 2 and probably 3.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 57 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.200) on 28-Jul-2003 10:46:50 | In Reply to Comment 53 (-D-):
Similar does not make it equal. Furthermore, there is NOTHING similar besides the feature for making the transition towards the Pegasos platform more convinient for Amiga users. MorphOS applications is not compatible with the Amiga, MorphOS doesn't run on the same hardware as the AmigaOS, the MorphOS design and functionality is nowhere near similar to the real AmigaOS, supporting MorphOS does not benefit Amiga users, developers, nor the Amiga market in any way, etc. Why would any Amiga user not interested in converting to the Pegasos platform do anything besides resent this cheap Amiga rip-off OS?
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 58 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.200) on 28-Jul-2003 10:56:24 | In Reply to Comment 55 (DaveP):
By that definition, there are atleast 1 million Amiga users out there, probably even more. Think about everyone owning an A500 that is collecting dust somewhere in their closet, think about all those people using WinUAE for a game of Giana Sisters once in a while... Wow!!!
Seriously, I think we should narrow it down to still active Amiga users, don't you agree? Furthermore, if you are still actively using a real Amiga, then you are an Amiga users with that as the sole reason. If you have a Pegasos too, that is completely irrelevant. Owning a Pegasos does of course not in anyway cancel your "Amiga user"-ship, just like owning an Amiga does not in anyway cancel your "Pegasos user"-ship. These are too seperate things and one thing does not affect the other. You with me yet?
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 59 of 381 | Posted by DaveP (32.106.75.57) on 28-Jul-2003 10:57:07 | In Reply to Comment 57 (samface):
OK, well consider me a non Amiga user because I don't resent this cheap
rip off as you call it. I consider it an interesting sideline and an irrelevance to the direction Amiga are taking with AmigaOS but certainly see no reason to resent it.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 61 of 381 | Posted by DaveP (32.106.75.57) on 28-Jul-2003 11:03:18 | In Reply to Comment 58 (samface):
"By that definition, there are atleast 1 million Amiga users out there, probably even more. Think about everyone owning an A500 that is collecting dust somewhere in their closet, think about all those people using WinUAE for a game of Giana Sisters once in a while... Wow!!!"
Right, so theres some uber-Amiga elite bar that people have to leap over before they are considered welcome by the Amiga fraternity? Do you turn people away who cannot boot up their A500s? Or those that own an A500 in the attic and want to talk about them? This isolationist attitude is ludicrious.
"Seriously, I think we should narrow it down to still active Amiga users, don't you agree?"
Active as in still take an interest or active as in logged in, right now, to some functioning Amiga branded kit? Damn, remind me not to turn my Amiga off at any stage I might lose my status.
"Furthermore, if you are still actively using a real Amiga, then you are an Amiga users with that as the sole reason."
Right, so heres me, using AmigaForever, and Im using an Amiga. Category 1 in my list yes?
"If you have a Pegasos too, that is completely irrelevant. Owning a Pegasos does of course not in anyway cancel your "Amiga user"-ship, just like owning an Amiga does not in anyway cancel your "Pegasos user"-ship."
Ah but you said a true Amiga resented them? Point is Sammy, if I buy MorphOS merely to run my existing Amiga applications through A/Box and UAE and run it on a Pegasos do you immediately exclude me from the Amiga community ( if I no longer own a real amiga - say its broken or I sold it )?
" These are too seperate things and one thing does not affect the other. You with me yet?"
I know what you are saying, I am not that thick, I just choose not to agree with your conclusions. No one sane is claiming the Pegasos is an "Amiga" anymore however we have more in common than seperates us yes?
Have a nice day.
Dave.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 63 of 381 | Posted by DaveP (32.106.75.57) on 28-Jul-2003 11:06:23 | In Reply to Comment 62 (samface):
"Read my posts and our debate might be a bit more constructive. I shouldn't even have to point out the flaw in your respons."
Really our debate is not constructive? How do you reason that? What flaw? I merely categorise myself by your classification mechanism to show you how ludicrious it is.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 64 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.200) on 28-Jul-2003 11:08:56 | In Reply to Comment 61 (DaveP):
Now you're beeing nothing but plain silly. Why would it be so hard to seperate those with an A500 collecting dust in the closet from those still actively using their Amiga and has a genuine Amiga interest? And asking wether it is logical for Amiga users to resent something or not is NOT the same thing as concluding that they would. Please, calm down and *read* my posts. You're not acting very rational, I'm afraid.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 65 of 381 | Posted by -D- (206.100.223.21) on 28-Jul-2003 11:16:20 | In Reply to Comment 57 (samface):
>Similar does not make it equal.
Yes, that's exactly what I said...please re-read my post.
>cheap Amiga rip-off OS?
I'll come back when you've grown up a bit (although I must admit
that was pretty funny).
-D-
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 66 of 381 | Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 28-Jul-2003 11:43:24 | I was at work (first day after holidays.. aaagh!) so excuse my late re-enter to the discussion :)
Anyways, Samface, I think you're a bit too narrowminded about this. And what you said about "in MorphOS there is nothing similar to AmigaOS"
Let's see some of the software I use daily on Pegasos, the exact same ones I used on Amiga aswell:
- IBrowse (68k)
- AmIrc (68k)
- Magellan (68k)
- ARexx (68k)
- Yam (MOS, used 68k on Amiga)
- Ced (MOS, used 68k on Amiga)
- ATC (68k)
- SongPlayer (MOS, used 68k on Amiga)
- VNC (68k)
- MiamiDX (68k)
- AmiNetRadio2 (68k)
- ImageFX (68k)
.. and you still think there is *nothing* in common compared to my days when I used Amiga? I'd descripe it as VERY MUCH alike my Amiga days (yes, even when talking about the OS itself). And frankly speaking, you don't have a clue about MorphOS so better not to tell others how it is either.
With you, it's just like us arquing a whole day about a half glass of water.. is it half full or is it half empty.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 67 of 381 | Posted by Janne (80.186.73.90) on 28-Jul-2003 11:51:46 | In Reply to Comment 58 (samface):
>Seriously, I think we should narrow it down to still active Amiga users,
>don't you agree?
Face it, Samface (no pun intended), many people simply disagree with your general point of view (sorry for the misleading quote).
I can appreciate your point of view, but many people see a relevance in AROS and MorphOS within the "Amiga" community and want to, at least for the moment, include all of the solutions within the community they see as "Amiga". I know there are people who'd like to exclude users of Amithlon and Amiga Forever too from the Amiga community, but again, there are people who wouldn't.
We are no longer the unified force we were in the hey-days of Commodore. History has fragmented us and there are many paths to choose from. Three have a future of their own, as far as I can tell. As for the past and the present, the emulation solutions offer even more possibilities for people interested in the "Amiga". I welcome these. I know Amiga Forever has saved my day on many occasions.
You choose to see the community unified and thus choose only a subset of the community others see is there. That is your perogative and I won't give you any grief over it. We've discussed it. But I do like to reiterate that I see more possibilities in us being somewhat together than completely divided. For instance, if one buys classic Amiga software for his Pegasos, does he not benefit the Amiga dealer and developer? Sure, the same goes for UAE...
You keep discussing the future, but we've been doing that for years on end. I'd like to discuss what is here now. And today, there is plenty of reason to feel all these solutions are interconnected. We can have some influence over where they go too. Why not make the most of it? I know. I know. You see that as detracting from the future of the official solution and, thus, choose to oppose the unity I'm discussing.
That is certainly your choice. But please don't look surprised when a lot of people just don't agree.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 68 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.197) on 28-Jul-2003 11:58:11 | In Reply to Comment 66 (hooligan/dcs):
I can run M$ Internet Explorer on a Mac with MacOSX, does that make the Mac User a Windows user? No. Computer platform communities are not defined by what applications they are using, it's defined by what OS and hardware they are using. If I would emulate a Playstation on my Windows PC and run Playstation games on it, it's still just a Windows PC and I'm still just a Windows PC user. It's as simple as that, really.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 69 of 381 | Posted by Jupp3 (193.167.144.30) on 28-Jul-2003 12:01:57 | In Reply to Comment 52 (samface):
Samface:
Lets take an example from "not that long ago."
I start my _Amiga_ 1200
I reboot to MorphOS.
It loads and runs _Amiga_ OS 3.9 under MorphOS (0.6 iirc) 68k emulation.
So... HW I was using was Amiga, just like software...
Was I still Amiga user?
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 70 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.199) on 28-Jul-2003 12:07:51 | In Reply to Comment 67 (Janne):
I'm not surprised, merely amazed at the flaws in such reasoning. Everything you find interesting is not Amiga related simply because you are an Amiga user and because you find it interesting. If I would be interested in Mushrooms, mushrooms are still just mushrooms and has nothing to do with Amiga, regardless of how much of an Amiga user I am. I can understand why the Pegasos/MorphOS is interesting to Amiga users, but not why it would be an Amiga nor why it's users would be Amiga users (unless they of course do own an Amiga that they are still using actively).
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 71 of 381 | Posted by DaveP (193.249.80.74) on 28-Jul-2003 12:11:40 | In Reply to Comment 64 (samface):
"Now you're beeing nothing but plain silly."
I don't understand why you have to get so personal.
"Why would it be so hard to seperate those with an A500 collecting dust in the closet from those still actively using their Amiga and has a genuine Amiga interest?"
It is irrelevant, why do you want to seperate them? What is your point? Do you think that having an A500 collecting dust in the closet and not actively using an Amiga means that they no longer have an interest in the Amiga? You going to turn them away when all they might be doing is waiting for a new Amiga that is viable again for their computing needs?
Face it, you are trying to create a clique.
"And asking wether it is logical for Amiga users to resent something or not is NOT the same thing as concluding that they would."
Err, thats not what you said.
"Please, calm down and *read* my posts. You're not acting very rational, I'm afraid."
/me shakes his head
No I read that right.
Firstly my blood pressure and temprature are normal, I feel perfectly rational, I don't drink alchohol any more, I have not got personal with you ( despite you doing so with me ). Hmm. I think you are deluding yourself Sammy.
Regards
DaveP.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 72 of 381 | Posted by Jupp3 (193.167.144.30) on 28-Jul-2003 12:12:26 | In Reply to Comment 57 (samface):
Samface:
Since it seems you have absolutely NO idea, what you're writing about,
I just have to reply for you...
"MorphOS applications is not compatible with the Amiga"
On "source level" most MorphOS applications are VERY compatible...
And "source code" is what most deveopers develop in the first place...
It's Compilers' job to compile source to chosen target platform(s)
"MorphOS doesn't run on the same hardware as the AmigaOS"
Eh???
Guess, you would rather mean "AmigaOS 4 won't run on certain platform supporting MorphOS"
Few facts for you:
1. MorphOS runs on CSPPC machines, which are first target platform of AOS4.
2. MorphOS runs on BPPC machines, which are 3rd target platform for AOS4
3. MorphOS version for Teron/AmigaOne boards is being worked on
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 74 of 381 | Posted by Janne (80.186.73.90) on 28-Jul-2003 12:18:19 | In Reply to Comment 70 (samface):
>I'm not surprised, merely amazed at the flaws in such reasoning.
Perhaps you shouldn't try to force classic logic onto something that is clearly more of the fuzzy nature. There is no point of trying to find an absolute definition for the bounds of this community, since for many people who make up that community no such clear definition exists. Certainly for many, like you, such a definition does exist, but I'm not so sure that is a majority...
>Everything you find interesting is not Amiga related simply because you are an
>Amiga user and because you find it interesting.
Certainly not. However, if enough Amiga users find it interesting, it does have a place in the community. Communities are about common interests, after all. But then there is more to MorphOS, AROS, Amiga Forever, Amithlon etc. (just to loosely bind together Amiga-related technologies that are not the official way _forward_) than just connection out of interest. There is the technological connection too, that kind of makes the point even more legitimate.
>I can understand why the Pegasos/MorphOS is interesting to Amiga users, but
>not why it would be an Amiga nor why it's users would be Amiga users (unless
You choose to make an issue out of it. I know many people who owned a Classic Amiga. Had a nice setup, lots of software. They wanted something faster. They bought a Pegasos, moved all the software to that, just as nice, only faster, and sold the Amiga. They use a computer that acts and feels just like the old one, except faster. It runs their AmIRC, has screens and is programmed the same way. For them, they got a new Amiga. Certainly not in name, but in every way that counts. Why would these people want to abandon the Amiga community?
Or more importantly, why would the Amiga community want to abandon them?
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 75 of 381 | Posted by Turrican (62.103.178.141) on 28-Jul-2003 12:18:36 | @Samface
What you are trying to do here is plain stupid!
You cannot strictly define what AMIGA is anymore, much more what an AMIGAN is. Many factors in the last 2-3 years contributed radically to that and the bigest two of them happend from Amiga Inc.!
1. In the Gateway 2000 times, the desition for Linux to be the core of the next generation Amiga.
2. In the Bill Mc Ewen times, the desition to dump classic Amiga in flavor of Intent.
Plus things like years of nearly zero development and constant direction change from the owners of theName(tm), forced the remaining hardcore Amiga enthusiasts to find other - unoficial - solutions to keep their platform alive. So the birth of UAE, Amithlon, AROS, Pegasos and who knows what next...!
In the end, IMO, the only thing that describes what AMIGA is *now*, is the EXPERIENCE and FEEL of the classic. Certainly not theName(tm) or the "oficial sources" of anything. Not Anymore!
And I thank Amiga Inc. for that :)
Have fun AMIGA PPL!
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 76 of 381 | Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 28-Jul-2003 12:19:04 | In Reply to Comment 68 (samface):
What a way to miss my whole point. "Amigism" (if that is a word) for me is a lot more than Amiga hardware. I don't know about you but I have replaced pretty much everything to upgrade it from being an old Amiga. PicassoIV to get rid off AGA, Concierto to get rif off Paula, harddrive to get rid off Workbench disks, PPC turbocard to get rid off as much 68k as possible etc.
My point is that I STILL use the very same software I used daily on my Amiga. And to your question, yes, if my PC would boot to Amithlon everytime I start it, and I'd used it as my main system, I'd call myself an Amigist.
I am amazed you don't attack AmigaOne the similar way. There is nothing Amiga in it either.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 78 of 381 | Posted by Jupp3 (193.167.144.30) on 28-Jul-2003 12:23:39 | In Reply to Comment 73 (cahva):
cahva:
It's not a glass just becouse it contains some water!!!
Are you sure, that the HW manufacturer branded the product, you're now holding as "glass"?
And what good would it do to glasses, if people put their water to somewhere else?
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 79 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.198) on 28-Jul-2003 12:26:03 | In Reply to Comment 69 (Jupp3):
The MorphOS part of your question is completely irrelevant, the real question is; are you still using your Amiga as an Amiga? If the answer is "Yes", you are an Amiga user. If the answer is "No, I only run MorphOS on my Phase5 PPC accelerator board which is restricting me from running anything Amiga related natively", then you are not an Amiga user. It's simple, really.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 80 of 381 | Posted by Jupp3 (193.167.144.30) on 28-Jul-2003 12:30:34 | In Reply to Comment 79 (samface):
samface:
"Are you still using your Amiga as Amiga?"
Thinking of it... Yes, I am...
I am "using" it to waste some space under my desk, becouse my Pegasos has taken its place as my primary machine...
And, well, can't really think any other "use" for it, MOS runs much faster on Pegasos...
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 81 of 381 | Posted by Janne (80.186.73.90) on 28-Jul-2003 12:31:33 | In Reply to Comment 79 (samface):
Samface, your absolutism reminds my of George W. Bush. "You're either with us, or against us." I much more prefer the more open-minded approach many European heads of state have, even Tony Blair is far less absolute in his comments than Bush... or you. :-)
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 82 of 381 | Posted by Anonymous (62.158.102.81) on 28-Jul-2003 12:36:36 | This was a MorphOS 1.4 thread and it was destroyed by Samface and DaveP
by their repeated topic disruption. Thank you, goal accomplished.
I'm sure you both feel proud now in your twisted minds.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 83 of 381 | Posted by Pit (209.234.160.75) on 28-Jul-2003 12:40:03 | @Samface
By your logic, AROS & MorphOS users are not part of the Amiga community even if they are using something with the spirit and even the compatibility of the AmigaOS (either binary (MOS) or source (AROS) compatibility).
So by the same logic, users of OpenBeOS or Zeta are not part of the Be community?
Sorry, but according to them they are. That's not you who decide who are part of the community! And sorry AROS or MOS users have their place in the Amiga community, you like it or not. So please stop annoying us with that. If you don't like this FACT, then ignore it and leave us alone (or buy a brain and be smart), you are boring with your stupidity!!!!
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 84 of 381 | Posted by DaveP (193.249.80.74) on 28-Jul-2003 12:42:07 | In Reply to Comment 82 (Anonymous):
Read the thread properly and see comment number 12, which is where the trouble started.
My mission is not to "disrupt threads" but when peoples discussion takes things into an area where I have an interest or can contribute is respond. If you don't want me to contribute to threads then help your buddies keep it on track.
The fact that your criticism has to be personal shows quite frankly volumes about you.
Good day kid.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 85 of 381 | Posted by Janne (80.186.73.90) on 28-Jul-2003 12:43:18 | In Reply to Comment 81 (Janne):
Here is a New York Times article about the differences of Bush and Blair.
http://us.cnn.com/2003/US/07/08/nyt.kristof/
Looks pretty much like differences between Samface and DaveP to me within the context of absolutism. ;-)
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 87 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.198) on 28-Jul-2003 12:50:46 | In Reply to Comment 71 (DaveP):
>"Now you're beeing nothing but plain silly."
>
>I don't understand why you have to get so personal.
That wasn't meant as something personal, I was merely concluding that you're reasoning wasn't making any sense.
>"Why would it be so hard to seperate those with an A500 collecting dust in the
>closet from those still actively using their Amiga and has a genuine Amiga
>interest?"
>
>It is irrelevant, why do you want to seperate them? What is your point? Do you
>think that having an A500 collecting dust in the closet and not actively using
>an Amiga means that they no longer have an interest in the Amiga? You going to
>turn them away when all they might be doing is waiting for a new Amiga that is
>viable again for their computing needs?
Why would I want to turn away someone wanting to return to beeing an active Amiga user? All I ever talked about was that someone who stuffed their old A500 in their closet a decade ago and never looked back is not what I would define as a member of the Amiga community. Perhaps used to be, but not anymore.
Can you please read what I say rather than speculating about what I've said all the time.
>Face it, you are trying to create a clique.
I'm not creating anything, I'm merely trying to sort out the terms and what they mean here.
>"And asking wether it is logical for Amiga users to resent something or not is
>NOT the same thing as concluding that they would."
>
>Err, thats not what you said.
What I said was (quote):
"Why would any Amiga user not interested in converting to the Pegasos platform do anything besides resent this cheap Amiga rip-off OS?"
Is that the same thing as concluding that all Amiga users resent MorphOS? No. Is that the same thing as concluding that all Amiga users have to resent MorphOS in order to be an Amiga user? No.
All it means is that I'm asking for an explanation for why an Amiga user that does not want to convert to the Pegasos would do anything but resent MorphOS. The reason why I asked is simple; MorphOS is an opposive effort against the real AmigaOS and the efforts behind it, if you support the real AmigaOS it makes perfect sense to resent MorphOS.
The term cheap Amiga rip-off OS is simply because I think MorphOS is cheap (for free, even) and a rip-off (clone trying to replace the original).
>"Please, calm down and *read* my posts. You're not acting very rational, I'm
>afraid."
>
>/me shakes his head
>
>No I read that right.
I have to disagree with that.
>Firstly my blood pressure and temprature are normal, I feel perfectly
>rational, I don't drink alchohol any more, I have not got personal with you (
>despite you doing so with me ). Hmm. I think you are deluding yourself Sammy.
Of course I wouldn't know any of this better than you. However, your reasoning is still not making any sense and you did reply rather fast. Perhaps you should go back a few posts and reflect on some of the things that I've said before you reply again?
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 89 of 381 | Posted by Janne (80.186.73.90) on 28-Jul-2003 12:57:22 | In Reply to Comment 87 (samface):
>All it means is that I'm asking for an explanation for why an Amiga user that
>does not want to convert to the Pegasos would do anything but resent MorphOS.
>The reason why I asked is simple; MorphOS is an opposive effort against the
>real AmigaOS and the efforts behind it, if you support the real AmigaOS it
>makes perfect sense to resent MorphOS.
Because the world isn't that black and white, and not all people want to see it as black and white? Freedom of choice, open-mindedness, the works, you know?
One reason for an Amiga user that does not want to convert to the Pegasos not to resent MorphOS is because they... have no reason to? Not wanting something does not mean wanting to dislike it either. It may just be, irrelevant. Even though I don't agree with everything DaveP says (just like I don't disagree with everything you say, like in the one thread a while back), I do prefer his stance on this issue over yours.
I can think of more MorphOS positive reasons too, but lets leave it at that for the time being.
You know, it is NOT that simple. Blair should tell Bush that too. :-)
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 90 of 381 | Posted by Janne (80.186.73.90) on 28-Jul-2003 13:00:58 | Okay, since Samface deals in absolutes, I need some definite answers. :-)
a) Is AmigaOne owner running Linux an Amiga user? Member of the Amiga community?
b) If so, more than a MorphOS user running Amiga software on the Pegasos?
c) Is a person running Microsoft Game Paks (the Amiga kind) an Amiga user?
Yes. Life would be SO nice if this really were so simple. Perhaps I need a dose of this absolutism. Where can I buy it? :-)
Okay, just having some fun with the Bush analogy. I hope no-one got offended. None intended, anyway.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 93 of 381 | Posted by Anonymous (217.187.196.145) on 28-Jul-2003 13:06:18 | In Reply to Comment 87 (samface):
>MorphOS is an opposive effort against the real AmigaOS and the efforts behind
>it, if you support the real AmigaOS it makes perfect sense to resent MorphOS.
Now you are being plain silly!
Don't try to rewrite history, MOS has been in negotiations with AInc to become
the official OS4 when noone there seemed to be caring for an official continuation
of the Classic/PPC OS architecture anymore. It's not an evil attempt to steal the
real Amiga users away to Linux or ELF or sth... ;-)
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 95 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.197) on 28-Jul-2003 13:08:57 | In Reply to Comment 81 (Janne):
Well, let's atleast conclude what the general rule is before making exceptions to it. Now when I think about it, arguments like that even supports what I'm saying, kind of like the exception that confirms the rule.
Anyway, what amazes me is this mentality that the term Amiga would be something ambigious. Furthermore, why are you so surprised about the fact that some people doesn't want the Amiga brand to be associated with projects that are opposing the efforts behind the one and only real next generation Amiga? It's perfectly natural, if you ask me, why can't you just respect that? I mean, if you guys really don't care about the name, then why are you clinging on to it so hard?
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 96 of 381 | Posted by Janne (80.186.73.90) on 28-Jul-2003 13:09:12 | In Reply to Comment 93 (Anonymous):
>Don't try to rewrite history, MOS has been in negotiations with AInc to become
>the official OS4 when noone there seemed to be caring for an official
>continuation
I already discussed that with Samface in the past. He doens't care. It is no excuse in his book. What he sees now is competition (and of course he is right, there is competition) and that automatically makes MorphOS bad. You see, for him, it is that simple. No matter the larger context.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 97 of 381 | Posted by DaveP (193.249.80.74) on 28-Jul-2003 13:15:03 | In Reply to Comment 87 (samface):
>>"Now you're beeing nothing but plain silly."
>>
>>I don't understand why you have to get so personal.
>That wasn't meant as something personal, I was merely concluding that you're
>reasoning wasn't making any sense.
Then please restrain yourself to saying just that and explaining why. People misread you know and I DO apologise.
> Why would I want to turn away someone wanting to return to beeing an active
> Amiga user?
Good Im glad we agree on that point.
> All I ever talked about was that someone who stuffed their old A500 in their
> closet a decade ago and never looked back is not what I would define as a
> member of the Amiga community. Perhaps used to be, but not anymore.
OK Ill concede that too. But heres the point, they WERE a member once before, what we are seeing here is a constant attempt to redefine what it means to be an "Amigan". Amiga Inc are broadening the definition by the DE and Hyperion by the PPC OS and Eyetech the A1 hardware. Why do you insist on publically trying to narrow it?
> Can you please read what I say rather than speculating about what I've said all the time.
If you give me the same courtesy, and you explain to me where I get it wrong Im sure we will get along.
>>Face it, you are trying to create a clique.
> I'm not creating anything, I'm merely trying to sort out the terms and what they mean here.
OK, lets concede that too, its merely my assessment of your motivation which is as liable to innaccuracies as anything.
>"Why would any Amiga user not interested in converting to the Pegasos platform do anything besides resent this cheap Amiga rip-off OS?"
>Is that the same thing as concluding that all Amiga users resent MorphOS? No. >Is that the same thing as concluding that all Amiga users have to resent >MorphOS in order to be an Amiga user? No.
No, you are re-affirming your whole thesis in a single question. By saying that supporting MorphOS and Pegasos is a nail in the coffin of Amiga throughout your question can only be interpreted one way - that you cannot support MorphOS and continue to be acting in the best interests of the Amiga right? One of your earlier posts said just that? Therefore if you aren't acting in the interests of Amiga you are not part of the community ( recall how you define it )? Stop me if Im going too fast. Therefore I think I interpreted your question right. But to answer it directly was too easy, I thought Id answer it by example. However that has backfired. ;)
"All it means is that I'm asking for an explanation for why an Amiga user that does not want to convert to the Pegasos would do anything but resent MorphOS. The reason why I asked is simple; MorphOS is an opposive effort against the real AmigaOS and the efforts behind it, if you support the real AmigaOS it makes perfect sense to resent MorphOS. "
And here you confirm it. I disagree fundamentally.
"The term cheap Amiga rip-off OS is simply because I think MorphOS is cheap (for free, even) and a rip-off (clone trying to replace the original). "
Yes, but you chose your words carefully - with a negative spin. Almost a sneer. I might not agree with the Genesi business model ( what I understand of it ) there is nothing wrong with MorphOS as a product.
I have to disagree with that.
>Firstly my blood pressure and temprature are normal, I feel perfectly
>rational, I don't drink alchohol any more, I have not got personal with you (
>despite you doing so with me ). Hmm. I think you are deluding yourself Sammy.
> Of course I wouldn't know any of this better than you. However, your reasoning is still not making any sense and you did reply rather fast.
Please explain what does not make sense? I rarely see such things in black and white. If we alienate MorphOS users needlessly then yes it may be that by doing so our actions will cause them to always work against us and never buy Amiga based kit in future - we bring about what you so much resent! Think about what you are doing :-) Detente is what you should be looking for.
> Perhaps you should go back a few posts and reflect on some of the things that I've said before you reply again?
I have, and I think I should have replied differently before to get my point of view across. Sorry about that, but I still stand by my point of view. I do not always take what you say at face value, I bring all of what you say in a thread into bear.
Now can we chill and stop alienating the vast majority of MorphOS users? Its not AmigaOS or the next AmigaOS but we have more in common with them than we do any other userbase right? :-)
Regards
Dave.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 98 of 381 | Posted by samface (131.116.254.198) on 28-Jul-2003 13:19:10 | In Reply to Comment 90 (Janne):
>a) Is AmigaOne owner running Linux an Amiga user? Member of the Amiga
>community?
If you are refering to the AmigaOne prepared to run AmigaOS4 (as in opposed to the LinuxOne), of course you are an Amiga community member. If you have nothing to run AmigaOS with yet (as in sold your old Amiga or whatever), then your not an Amiga user just yet, but of course a member of the Amiga community.
>b) If so, more than a MorphOS user running Amiga software on the Pegasos?
You are not an Amiga user solely for the reason of running AmigaOS3.1 compatible applications. That's like saying that you would be a hammer user despite not owning or using a hammer for getting the nails into the board.
>c) Is a person running Microsoft Game Paks (the Amiga kind) an Amiga user?
If you use Amiga products, you are of course an Amiga user. Part of the community? Well, that depends on the user himself if he actually does take part in the Amiga user community or not.
I really don't see the reason for why this would have to be so complicated.
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 99 of 381 | Posted by Anonymous (217.187.196.145) on 28-Jul-2003 13:24:31 | In Reply to Comment 96 (Janne):
>What he sees now is competition (and of course he is right, there is competition)
BBRV say there is no competition and they wish AInc luck in the things they want to accomplish.
Pegasos is an open platform and everyone is invited to be part of it or port their
favourite OS (afair 16 are said to be already in progress...).
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MorphOS 1.4 : Comment 100 of 381 | Posted by Janne (80.186.73.90) on 28-Jul-2003 13:32:42 | In Reply to Comment 95 (samface):
>why are you so surprised about the fact that some people doesn't want the
>Amiga brand to be associated with projects that are opposing the efforts
>behind the one and only real next generation Amiga?
I'm not surprised, I'm just amazed. ;-) No, not really. First, let me separate the companies building the official solution, I naturally understand their business reasons to feel the way they do. (And vice-versa, of course.) That is one thing.
The community is another. I don't see it as black and white. I don't think dividing us is necessarily the most beneficial thing to do. I think there could be benefits from staying closer together in terms of co-operation, cross-platform development, larger buying power, more diversity, lesser reliance on any single provider of goods or services, etc. I'm more than willing to concede there are risks, like I have done, but there are also opportunities.
So, that is certainly something I like to advocate because I believe it to be in both my interests and in the interests of people around me. You have your own beliefs and while I am more than happy to discuss and debate them, I do agree to disagree with you. I do acknowledge there are others that feel like you, and I somewhat understand the logic behind it all too, having felt similarily in the past, but for me it just doesn't ring true anymore.
My rationale for that is above and in other threads we've gone through.
>It's perfectly natural, if you ask me, why can't you just respect that? I
>mean, if you guys really don't care about the name, then why are you clinging
>on to it so hard?
Oh, but I do respect it. A few light-hearted jokes aside, I discuss the issues, not the people or the validity of their opinions. We disagree on issues, but I have no problem respecting you as a person with a right to an opinion.
What I don't appreciate is the continued questioning of my right to be here. You say I, and people like me I assume, are clinging to some name we don't care about. Well, first of all, we've all been here for a long time - what, fifteen odd years for me now. I've still got one Commodore Amiga and some official products from later Amiga incarnations too. Boxed away mostly, but still. There are tons of Amiga magazines and books here, and above all, memories. My Amiga hobby got me really hooked into computers and helped me make a job out of it.
But past is past, more importantly I continue to be a contributing member of that community today. For instance, this past weekend I imported lot of Amiwest news to our local user group forums - both Amiga and Pegasos related. Last year I was part of the team who arranged the first public AmigaOne demo in Finland (and Pegasos too). I've spent countless hours working for our user group. I also spent several years writing about Amiga in Finnish magazines. But now I digress - what is important is that I continue to participate and continue to hold an interest in things Amiga. I may not agree with everything going on, mostly I dislike Amiga Inc., but that doesn't take away my interest in the platform or the community. Just because I think MorphOS has a more believable and tangible solution out there TODAY (which they do), doesn't invalidate this.
You coming up with artificial rules of who should be in the community or not, well, that I strongly disagree with and I believe I have every right to be here and express that opinion.
Like I said in the past, nobody knows where the future will take us. Perhaps in two years time MorphOS is so "not Amiga" that we can't really have anything in common. Perhaps that is the case. But then, that might not be the case. Today we have diverse community with a lot of different options and opportunities. Some things separate us, but for the moment, more things combine us than divide us. We don't know where these paths will take us. I just appreciate the fact that for once there is so much buzz going on. We can all get along just fine and be of service to each other if we just let that happen.
Take the Amiwest banquet for instance. What a breath of FRESH air! After years of hype and broken promises from Amiga Inc., Gateway and the others, we've got a panel full of people discussing actual progress. We've got Ben giving a low-down on OS4 and the great work they've put into it, we've got Jens with very interesting low-level hardware stuff, Bill with the Pegasos platform and they are moving forward with tangible products people could touch and see, and then there is Jeri with her own blast from the past.
When I first read the Amiwest banquet announcement it seemed like the excitement they discussed was a bit subdued and perhaps marketing speakish, but after listening to the banquet I changed my mind. Heck, this was the best banquet in ages. This is real progress, real appreciation for the diversity in the community and not artificially building borders - just people enjoying getting some fun back into computing. For instance, C=One sure ain't Amiga, but I sure do appreciate Jeri Ellsworth hanging around in the Amiga community.
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