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[Rant] What is happening to Amiga in generalLink
Posted on 16-May-2005 18:03 GMT by DrFloppy109 comments (107k)
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Anybody tried to contact Eyetech about AmigaOne? Anyone asked it self why there aren't any real official AmigaOne web page with nice presentation of the products that this brand covers. What is happening with the main actors?

Anybody tried to contact Eyetech about AmigaOne? Anyone asked it self why there aren't any real official AmigaOne web page with nice presentation of the products that this brand covers. What is happening with the main actors?
Here is the trigger story for this writting... I contacted Eyetech few times by e-mail and several times by phone. I didn't get any reply on my e-mails neither I could get a phone contact (answering machine is always full). What is really happening to Amiga scene? Also what happend to cooperation between Amiga Inc. and other companies that are using Amiga brand for their products. Amiga inc. doesn't have any link from their page to some real presentation of AmigaOne computers, all you get from Eyetech about it are the prices and some very narrowed specifications. How can some decide what to buy if the most "noname" company from Wintel world have better web presentations of their products the we have on Amiga scene. Being unreachable doesn't help Amiga brand either (Eyetech). And there is also few other problems that don't help to get Amiga back on market like it should be. There is a big lack of serviceing the defective products if they appear, also time to get the product is to long, the price is to high and technology is almost outdated when gets out. I would like Alan Redhouse to answer why nobody answer even on dealer application mails. Our club would like to organize AMS 2005 but we don't have anything to show. How to become a reseller if you don't get basic information on reseller prices and conditions... Ther is a lot of problems that have to be solved if we want Amiga brand to succseed again and spread across the world.
What do you think? What should we do? What Amiga Inc. should do? What Eyetech should do? And what dealers should do?

 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 51 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 19-May-2005 23:50:17
In Reply to Comment 42 (Anonymous Orc):
>when WASNT Amiga OS proprietary?

Since AROS and the Open Source Amiga compatibles came along?

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 52 of 109
Posted by gary_c (219.162.47.136) on 20-May-2005 01:57:32
In Reply to Comment 37 (anon):
As opposed to say, a proprietary, non localised, inspired by, taken from, wanna be, look at me, OS?

What, therefore is the 'jewel' in your world?


I'm not sure I understand your point. In view of the posts that followed mine, it looks like, by calling AOS4 a "jewel," I might have been too generous. I meant that at least progress is continuing and there have been steady -- if slow, for understandable reasons -- improvements, etc., and the customers seem to be happy with it. So compared to Eyetech's hardware products and Amiga, Inc.'s support, etc., AOS4 looks pretty good.

Of course this doesn't address the bigger questions of what the market is supposed to be, how AOS4 compares to other niche OSs like SkyOS and Haiku and MorphOS, how an expensive OS/hardware bundle can compare with free/cheap OSs on commodity hardware, etc.

You seem to be implying that I think MorphOS should fare better in that context somehow. From a marketing standpoint, it has many of the same negatives, though not as extreme since the Pegasos is cheaper and runs better and has better alternative OS support.

I think on the positive side, MorphOS is seen differently by its users, maybe. It is admittedly an enthusiast OS at this point and for the foreseeable future, and no one has dreams that it'll recapture old glory days or challenge mainstream desktop and console platforms -- the kind of "fanboy" stuff I read fairly often a certain other sites. And it has already experienced a market/funding shock that has made it a kind of volunteer project, and Genesi doesn't view it as a profit center at this point in time, which relieves it of the pressure to be profitable in itself. This realism probably improves its chances of surviving in some form.

In contrast, AOS4 is still apparently part of the equation for Amiga partners' profitability, though I imagine it's safe to say that the project is not producing sustainable profits. While Genesi has been keen on bringing as many OSs onboard as possible, the AmigaOne really supports only AOS4, which narrows its market very significantly. Finally, though the AmigaOne may have sold more than the Pegasos so far, I suspect the future market is very limited, with not many more customers to be found beyond those who've already bought and those who are just waiting for the official release of AOS4. Just my opinion.

As far as China is concerned, I don't think there's any question that the OS "jewel" is Linux. At least the Pegasos runs Linux well, and Genesi has a high-profile partner or two opening doors. Still, I'm sure no one involved in that project underestimates the challenge of competing against high-volume x86 alternatives. Can Amiga figure in this market at all? I don't see any indication so far.

-- gary_c

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 53 of 109
Posted by Don Cox (Registered user) on 20-May-2005 08:15:54
In Reply to Comment 52 (gary_c):
"Can Amiga figure in this market at all? I don't see any indication so far."

It might help to stop thinking about "markets" and concentrate on getting actual orders from individual customers.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 54 of 109
Posted by Johan Rönnblom (83.248.64.134) on 20-May-2005 16:30:45
In Reply to Comment 52 (gary_c):
Uh, what makes you think the AOne would have sold more than the Peg?

Of course, it's not possible to tell as neither party have disclosed
any sales figures recently, but I very much doubt this.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 55 of 109
Posted by Anonymous (213.226.84.109) on 20-May-2005 17:12:01
In Reply to Comment 53 (Don Cox):
Hehe, yeah, let's forget all about marketing and concentrate on selling the stuff! LOL! ;-)

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 56 of 109
Posted by JoannaK (194.142.83.2) on 20-May-2005 17:13:34
In Reply to Comment 54 (Johan Rönnblom):
IIRC There was a sidenote on a press release (or?) from Genesi stating that over two thousand Pegasos 2:s been delivered/sold .. (some recent Freescale related news, so I'd expect that to contain Freescale sponsored devboards)..

I have no idea how many Pegasos 1:s (in all variants) there were but I'd expect that to be close to one thousand.

So.. It would make about two-point-half and three thousand for total figure..

---

About A-ones.. IIRC one Frienden mentioned sometime ago (was it OS4 Beta-CD:s?) of a one thousand -like number..

And Based on that Poll not so long ago (results at http://www.ann.lu/detail.cgi?category=news&file=1115126172.msg thread), Micto-A1 has not sold well at all. (1/2 to 1/3 of Amigaone SE/XE)

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 57 of 109
Posted by gary_c (218.231.235.118) on 21-May-2005 07:59:02
In Reply to Comment 54 (Johan Rönnblom):
I got the impression a while back that more AmigaOnes than Pegasoses had been sold, but I'm not sure what the basis was and that impression could easily be wrong. This just makes the picture worse for Amiga, if it's true.

-- gary_c

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 58 of 109
Posted by Bill Hoggett (80.46.207.80) on 21-May-2005 11:45:12
The years pass and nothing changes. :(

(And I say this as a complete outsider these days. It's sad to see.)

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 59 of 109
Posted by Thomas Frieden (Registered user) on 21-May-2005 12:01:48
In Reply to Comment 44 (MarkTime):
>>Oh, so now we're "dubious" ?
>
>Yes.

LOL, and that from you.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 60 of 109
Posted by Thomas Frieden (Registered user) on 21-May-2005 12:03:32
In Reply to Comment 47 (JoannaK):
Ahh, great to see all thos people come out and sa "I told you so". Especially since most of them didn't.

Oh well, it's always eays to say "I told you so" afterwards.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 61 of 109
Posted by Thomas Frieden (Registered user) on 21-May-2005 12:07:46
In Reply to Comment 42 (Anonymous Orc):
> when WASNT Amiga OS proprietary

Where did I say something else ?

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 62 of 109
Posted by Don Cox (Registered user) on 21-May-2005 15:29:40
In Reply to Comment 60 (Thomas Frieden):
JoannaK however has been prophecying disaster for everything to do with the Amiga for several years. So whatever goes wrong, she is entitled to say "Told you so".

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 63 of 109
Posted by Bill Hoggett (80.46.207.80) on 21-May-2005 17:24:47
In Reply to Comment 62 (Don Cox):
Actually, a lot of people pointed out problems with the chosen route, but since most high profile individuals refused to listen it's no surprise they can't remember.

Sadly for the Amiga scene, what has happened to all sides over the past few years has been entirely predictable and no one should act surprised.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 64 of 109
Posted by AdmV (194.106.52.30) on 21-May-2005 21:32:51
In Reply to Comment 60 (Thomas Frieden):
OK, and yet, you comment, but offer nothing to all your plausable customers who have bought into your partnership of companies products. Why bother to post belittling replies to your attackers.

Do you not feel that the people who have bought in or partaken in your set out path actually deserve some view of yours besides this? Or are they worthless and should be left dangling in the wind, with a broken product, lies, deciet, and continuing silence.

If you, or Hyperion wish to come out of this free of being blamed, you better start to speak up, or be silent, in a silence of the damned.

But beyond this, one can only presume that Hyperion too are now left without an actual hardware system to release for. Are you daring enough to offer an insight into where you go from here?

What exactly are you coding for, Thomas :)

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 65 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 21-May-2005 22:06:35
Hyperion needs to port Amiga OS to x86-64 (and don't forget the exokernel) ;-)

You know I'm right. The market is bigger with x86-64, and it's time for Amiga clones, the "Amiga PC" (ala' IBM PC), and to take on Microsoft Windows.

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 66 of 109
Posted by ChrisH (82.71.2.6) on 22-May-2005 09:29:06
Apart from the Exokernels bit (for which I've previously explained doesn't really apply to AmigaOS very well), I have to agree with EyeAm that Hyperion need to wake-up and smell the x86 coffee:

If they just pick a recent x86 mobo from one good manufacturer, ensuring that it is already well supported by Linux (and thus the manufacturer's help won't be absolutely necessary in getting the needed technical info), they could easily brand it an "Amiga One" (or perhaps "Omiga One" if Amiga Inc weren't too happy about the x86 path!).

Not only would they have cheap 'Amiga' systems to sell (hence more customers), but it wouldn't be that dated (by the time OS4 supported it), nor full of the (alleged) problems that have plagued all current Amiga One mobos. Surely a win-win for everyone, except those who make the current PPC mobos?

Of course, the Friedens have always said that being able to dual-boot into Windows would kill the market's future, but that just shows their lack of confidence in their OWN product! If the AmigaOS4 experience is sufficiently good (and I think it is), then people won't want to go to the trouble of rebooting into Windows. And I bet most Amiga One owns have an x86 box ANYWAY, as occasional access to a Windows box is an unfortunate necessity these days.

I still happily use Amithlon most of the time, and usually only reboot into Windows to play modern games (which aren't available for the Amiga), or when the IBrowse just isn't good enough. The argument can be made that people wouldn't bother to develop alternatives to what already exists on Windows, but lets be honest here, most of those left developing are die-hard Amigans, and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference anyway whether they can reboot to Windows or not.

Of course, it may be too late for OS4 to go the x86 route now, which will just leave AROS... (Come on guys, add 68k emulation & the masses will come running! :-)

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 67 of 109
Posted by Don Cox (Registered user) on 22-May-2005 09:55:53
In Reply to Comment 66 (ChrisH):
"Of course, it may be too late for OS4 to go the x86 route now"

It's never too late.

However, there are thousands of lines of PPC assembler in AOS4, which would have to be converted, and a port would probably need two JIT emulators. One for 68k to x86 and another for PPC to x86.

So it would be a hassle. The obvious strategy, IMO, is to get AOS4 finished and fully working on the existing A1 hardware first, and then look at porting it to a wider range. There are few programmers, so trying to port it and finish it simultaneously would be too much.

Also, by (say) late next year it may be more obvious which is the best hardware to port to first.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 68 of 109
Posted by vxve guy (63.246.136.50) on 22-May-2005 13:40:41
donot worry some os4 people may be developing right now a unofficial wine alike layer to run os4 and apps over osx :D



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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 69 of 109
Posted by mdma (62.252.192.12) on 22-May-2005 14:33:36
In Reply to Comment 68 (vxve guy):
Yeah, it's called AROS OSX-Hosted! :-P

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 70 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 23-May-2005 01:06:16
Yeah, write Amiga OS to take advantage of boards like these (939-pin CPU boards for AMD Athlon64/FX):

Abit AV8
Abit AN8 V2.0
Abit Fatality AN8 SLi

:) I've grown to love Abit, but Amiga OS should also run on other boards, like those from MSI, ASUS, Soyo, Shuttle, IBM, Tyan, Chaintech,...


1. One Amiga OS package, for PPC and x86-64 (autosenses hardware, installs appropriate libraries, etc.)
2. Exokernel (trust me, makes the most sense for all things Amiga)
3. Virtual Processor Library in System, from which to draw from (in conjunction with Datatypes), and use of Virtual Machines (for things regarding other OSes).
4. Emulated Classic Amiga chipsets (things can be ordered nicely using the VP Library, too; but here think of what Amithlon did). Else, you're probably looking at a PCI card with such chips (but that's more expensive).

I could go on, but 1) you've seen it before (and ignored pass on it each time), and 2) I'm too busy to go into lengthy posts today :) I know, lucky you.

Any questions on this New Amiga Vision, email me. I've tons of ideas.

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 71 of 109
Posted by Ronald St-Maurice (67.68.20.112) on 23-May-2005 05:00:17
In Reply to Comment 70 (EyeAm):
2. Exokernel (trust me, makes the most sense for all things Amiga)

I've read about exokernel. And it's HOT stuff. I need it for AROS.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 72 of 109
Posted by anarkhos (24.20.233.105) on 23-May-2005 06:18:51
In Reply to Comment 67 (Don Cox):
> However, there are thousands of lines of PPC assembler in AOS4

Bwahaha, yea right! Who the hell in their right mind would write thousands of lines of PPC assembler?! These aren't the days of 68k CPUs! You won't even find that in a compiler.

Cox, why are you always posting crap you don't have a friggin clue about? This isn't the first forum I've seen this from you. Any part of "AmigaOS" which is being rewritten would be done in C, not assembler unless it was absolutely necessary (like doing stack magic or a custom jump table, etc.). You don't have to replace assembly with assembly, geez.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 73 of 109
Posted by anarkhos (24.20.233.105) on 23-May-2005 06:26:23
In Reply to Comment 71 (Ronald St-Maurice):
An exokernel is something you can always implement later. The problem is it adds yet another layer to the OS model which means another interface has to be written and followed. Furthermore this interface is less portable than the higher level APIs and ABIs.

You can add support of the AROS ABI to another kernel/OS once its well defined. I don't see how we're there yet.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 74 of 109
Posted by anarkhos (24.20.233.105) on 23-May-2005 06:39:48
In Reply to Comment 70 (EyeAm):
> Any questions on this New Amiga Vision, email me. I've tons of ideas.

Everybody has ideas, how about a clue?

1) You don't need anything that "autosenses" since a different installer would boot for different platforms to begin with

2) See my previous post.

3) If only you added more buzzwords it might work....or not. We've heard rumors about this crap for years without any practical implementations. Stop reading WIRED magazine.

4a) Amithlon was an EMULATOR running on LINUX! In other words at no point were Linux and AmigaOS running in the same environment, rather one was running on the other. It is no different than running E-UAE on any other OS except Amithlon was better optimized.

4b) PCI card with such chips?! What the hell are you smoking! Nobody makes those chips, and haven't for over a decade! Furthermore I fail to see why putting them on a PCI card would help anyone. Were you planning to have a crusty old slow-ass PCI video card with 10+yr old Amiga chips on it? Have fun desoldering them from your A500s...

4c) This is as good an idea as "Jump to Conclusions" from Office Space. The only way to run classic crap any faster is to write a faster emulator which would run in its own sandbox, or as a separate application like E-UAE. There are ways to do this with current hardware (which I'm looking into), but I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain this in your "idea" format.

And as Samir Nagheenanajar said, "Yes tom, this is a terrible idea. it's horrible. awful"

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 75 of 109
Posted by anarkhos (24.20.233.105) on 23-May-2005 06:48:45
BTW the new (and better) solution to the problems Amiga's "chipset" tried to solve lies in programmable GPUs like vertex and fragment "processors". Once an emulator can emulate an A1200 at full speed I consider the job done and over with. New software won't be written with non-standard and non-portable chipset fiddling. In fact the fragment processor may help speed up video emulations if enough people who know what the hell they're talking about agree its a worthwhile project.

Needless to say I'm not recruiting from THIS pool

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 76 of 109
Posted by Jupp3 (82.141.68.69) on 23-May-2005 09:28:54
In Reply to Comment 72 (anarkhos):
>Who the hell in their right mind would write thousands of lines of PPC assembler?!

Well, imho it makes sense to have some things written in assembler for OS (and in any case, you might not be able to do everything that OS needs to do in C)

And in most cases, there's usually a working C solution before it's rewritten in assembler.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 77 of 109
Posted by Bernie Meyer (Registered user) on 23-May-2005 14:28:33
In Reply to Comment 74 (anarkhos):
I have no intention of defending or supporting any of EyeAm's ramblings, but this

>4a) Amithlon was an EMULATOR running on LINUX! In other words at no point were
>Linux and AmigaOS running in the same environment, rather one was running
>on the other. It is no different than running E-UAE on any other OS except
>Amithlon was better optimized.

needs correction. Unlike in UAE, the x86 and 68k parts shared full memory access at native addresses, as well as full hardware access. It also had well-defined and fully-integrated-into=Amiga-multitasking methods of jumping between 68k code and x86 code. You could write programs where every second function was in 68k, and the rest in x86. And while on the x86 "side", you had full access to all the linux kernel functionality. And you could pass pointers back and forth at your heart's content.

The only way you could claim what you claim above is if you deny that linux was running at all. Which, I would agree, is a point of view that certainly has some merit. But I don't think it's the point you were trying to make.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 78 of 109
Posted by anarkhos (24.20.233.105) on 23-May-2005 15:35:10
In Reply to Comment 77 (Bernie Meyer):
Could the native code be blocked by the chipset emulation? I mean even in UAE the host OS has access to all the hardware and can pass the functionality back to the emulated "side" either by function pointer+stack or as a section of memory. It would even be possible to implement PowerUp. This doesn't mean that native programs could do chipset fiddling.

But feel free to correct me again as necessary :)

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 79 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 23-May-2005 22:18:50
In Reply to Comment 74 (anarkhos):
You've completely missed the point, so there's no need for me to respond bit by bit to what you've posted. :-) You're like a big canon wheeled out just to blow, nothing more. "See EyeAm. Shoot." That's your directive.

*shrug*

I'm right. That's why I'm drawing such comments. :) Rest assured, if anybody in Amiga-land hopes and wishes for Amiga to have a chance anywhere, you better quickly realize I've been posting the signposts to its destiny.


--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 80 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 23-May-2005 22:34:41
In Reply to Comment 77 (Bernie Meyer):
>I have no intention of defending or supporting any of EyeAm's ramblings,
>but this

Of course, you're with the other side who just don't get it. No wonder you didn't even have the decency to reply to the email I sent you. You're no better than those on Moobunny. And to think I was trying to include you, and was nice enough to consider your skill with regard to a future Amiga OS.

Everything I've posted is true and can be done regarding Amiga. :-) Some of you think you know it all, and yet haven't found any viable solutions in between your nitpicking. Bernie, in light of your attitude, I'm glad Amiga Inc. crushed your efforts. Good. Couldn't happen to a...well, you know the rest.


>>4a) Amithlon was an EMULATOR running on LINUX! In other words at no
>>point were Linux and AmigaOS running in the same environment, rather
>>one was running on the other. It is no different than running E-UAE
>>on any other OS except Amithlon was better optimized.

>needs correction. Unlike in UAE, the x86 and 68k parts shared full memory
>access at native addresses, as well as full hardware access. It also had
>well-defined and fully-integrated-into=Amiga-multitasking methods of
>jumping between 68k code and x86 code. You could write programs where every >second function was in 68k, and the rest in x86. And while on the x86 "side",
>you had full access to all the linux kernel functionality. And you could pass
>pointers back and forth at your heart's content.

Oh, why do it the hard way? :) There are surely better ways. There's no need to 'jump'. And only the Classic stuff is going to need any kind of interface/interpreter for the new architecture, not the new Amiga OS.

1. 64-Bit Amiga OS. A NEW one, people! Not the Classic. A NEW OS.
2. EXOKERNEL. It only handles security. Read about it, you might learn something. You can run apps unchanged. With as much abstraction, or as little, as you want.
3. There are several ways to go about doing the backward compatability. Put them all on the table and see which is best (but realize that with an exokernel, you could conceivably do every one of the ways, simultaneously; side by side).

Start thinking out of the old Classic box. It's dead (save for what can be continued *within* a new OS environment). It's been time to create something new for a very long time.


>The only way you could claim what you claim above is if you deny that linux
>was running at all. Which, I would agree, is a point of view that certainly
>has some merit. But I don't think it's the point you were trying to make.

By the way, you do realize you weren't replying to a post of mine here, right? Even though you used my name at the start of your post.

Regarding Linux and Amiga, any new Amiga OS should be able to *use* Linux--particularly its drivers--and not in a scheme where we wind up dual-booting OSes. My view is entirely from the standpoint of booting an Amiga OS, and the Amiga OS using what might be installed. Something to draw from and put to use, utilize. We should be able to put Linux drivers into the Drivers drawer and apply them to cards present in the machine. It's not the hardware that will have changed. The Linux drivers are written for this hardware. The new item here is: Amiga OS would be on the current, regular PC hardware, which the Linux drivers were written for. But, as the Linux drivers were also written for a particular OS, an interface between the drivers and Amiga OS would need to be written. Like an Linux-driver-handler-for-Amiga-OS.

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 81 of 109
Posted by Bill Hoggett (80.46.207.80) on 23-May-2005 22:59:24
In Reply to Comment 79 (EyeAm):
EyeAm, you're a loon. A mouthy self-deluding one, but still a loon. No different from Tim Rue's VIC.

Instead of screaming at the top of your lungs how right you are, why don't you get your finger out and prove it with product?

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 82 of 109
Posted by Bernie Meyer (Registered user) on 24-May-2005 00:59:11
In Reply to Comment 78 (anarkhos):
What chipset emulation?

In UAE, memory gets allocated in the host OS, and then those and only those memory areas become visible to the emulated AmigaOS. There is no way AmigaOS could ever, say, write to the video memory or initiate a USB host adapter to DMA some stuff into its memory space.

In contrast, in Amithlon, the emulated 68k sees memory the same way as the x86 side, which is the same way as the physical memory layout. If the 68k wants to write into video memory, it can. If it wants to fiddle a TV card's PCI configuration registers, it can. If it wants to talk directly to a PCI network card, it can (in fact, the PCI NE2000 driver that comes with Amithlon is running completely in 68k, and is based on the PCMCIA one from Aminet). In fact, the 68k can even access all the code and data of the emulator executable, and I have at one point written a 68k keyboard/mouse driver that injects its data simply by changing the relevant variables.

Most of this never got used to full potential, of course --- but saying that Amithlon is no closer to the hardware than UAE running on top of linux is really short-changing the effort that went into it.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 83 of 109
Posted by Bernie Meyer (Registered user) on 24-May-2005 01:10:30
In Reply to Comment 80 (EyeAm):
>No wonder you didn't even have the decency to reply to the email I sent you.

Most likely that's because I never saw it. If you sent it to any address of the form xxxx@amithlon.net, it almost certainly went into a nice, large bitbucket, together with literally tens of thousands of other mails I receive each month on those addresses which can be harvested from the web.

If you actually want me to see what you write, you either have to be a sender on a rather small whitelist, have one of a number of "xxxx"s that gets pulled out from the trash, or send stuff to any address at my OTHER domain.

However, I must warn you that unless your ideas are a lot more grounded in reality in email, you'd be wasting your time, anyway. As Bill put it, just because you include more buzzwords doesn't make your stuff any more sensible than Tim Rue's.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 84 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 24-May-2005 02:05:41
In Reply to Comment 81 (Bill Hoggett):
Oh lookie, another personal attack. :-) Hey, Bill Hoggett, "Abusive language, excessive swear words, personal insults and trolling/flamebait are not allowed."--ANN's Comment guidelines.

Have a nice day, Bill.

--EyeAm (programmer for product)

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 85 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 24-May-2005 02:12:49
In Reply to Comment 83 (Bernie Meyer):
:-) I sent it to amithlon@amithlon.net

If you want to read it, check it now. You just got it two more times.

You seem to be of the group who thinks I only go around 'spouting' 'buzzwords', but of course my ideas are completely grounded in reality. If you choose, however, to disbelieve, that is entirely your perogative.

Eventually, Amiga is going to have no choice but to go the way I've been pointing to. It is inevitable. It's either that or death for the company, OS, and computer that once was Amiga. No choice.

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 86 of 109
Posted by Bill Hoggett (80.46.207.80) on 24-May-2005 05:54:15
In Reply to Comment 84 (EyeAm):
That's funny, I'd have thought claiming to be the one and only saviour of the Amiga puniverse after spouting nothing but buzzwords and vague concepts qualifies as trolling.

Ever heards the story about Peter and the wolf? Well, the villagers aren't about to jump every time someone shouts "wolf" any more. People have kept chucking up all sorts of unsubstantiated ideas, some wilder than others, for six or seven years now. Rarely has there been any development to match the talk.

So I say again: get off your soapbox and get coding. Come back when you have something to demonstrate - then people might start believing you aren't another Peter. When you start talking about Amiga Inc being on the cover or TIME magazine and bringing down Microsoft you're not going to win yourself any credibility points. Nor will you get much co-operation by insulting people or trying to bully or shame them into worshipping you. You need to demonstrate that you understand what you are proposing beyond the buzzowords, and you haven't done that despite going on ad nauseaum for years.

You attitude here is indicative of one of two possibilities: you are either (1) insane or (2) trolling. It is left to the reader;s discretion to decide which.

The more you talk, the more I'm reminded of the VIC. If you don't know what I'm talking about then perhaps you should do some research and find out.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 87 of 109
Posted by ChrisH (82.71.2.6) on 24-May-2005 09:32:32
I was just about to mention the *similaries* to Tim Rue (and his VIC), when Bill went and did it for me! Of course this doesn't actually solve the problem, and will most likely make it worse (just look at how Tim behaved), but I'm not sure there ever was any solution to Tim Rue either - apart from telling other people to not reply to his loony posts...

That said, I'm not yet ready to say that Eye Am is *definitely* loony (i.e. seriously out of touch with reality) - he might just (1) be naive, (2) be easily excitable about cool ideas (which the Exokernel is), (3) have an unfortunate tendency to believe that it should be self-evident that his ideas are great (or take his word for it), and (4) have unreasonable expectations that everyone else should do his work for him...


I just wish that someone else would have seen how obviously right my own compiler/language is, as I didn't have any knowledge of writing compilers, and it'd have saved me (so far) 3 years of design & coding of the damn thing!

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 88 of 109
Posted by ChrisH (82.71.2.6) on 24-May-2005 09:44:01
In Reply to Comment 80 (EyeAm):
EyeAm wrote: "Start thinking out of the old Classic box. It's dead (save for what can be continued *within* a new OS environment). It's been time to create something new for a very long time."

That sounds *remarkably* like MorphOS... So you don't like how MorphOS does everything? Well, hard luck, because you weren't involved in writing it! If you want something done exactly how you want it, then you're going to have to do it YOURSELF. Cos thats what Ralph Schmidt did. And thats what the tiny AROS group did. Hell, it's what Linus Torvald did!

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 89 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 24-May-2005 12:49:55
In Reply to Comment 86 (Bill Hoggett):
>That's funny, I'd have thought claiming to be the one and only saviour of
>the Amiga puniverse after spouting nothing but buzzwords and vague concepts
>qualifies as trolling.

I've never made any such proclamations, nor participated in any such actions. :)


>Ever heards the story about Peter and the wolf? Well, the villagers aren't
>about to jump every time someone shouts "wolf" any more.

Have you heard the story about The End-User And The Liars? :-) It ends predictably so: the End-User unmasks the liars for who they are, much to their chagrin.

>People have kept chucking up all sorts of unsubstantiated ideas, some wilder
>than others, for six or seven years now. Rarely has there been any development
>to match the talk.

I agree. 'People' shoudl really get off their lazy fat butts and code something like what I've been talking about, because it is certainly more worthwhile and viable than what they've offered. :-)


>So I say again: get off your soapbox and get coding.

I am, but not on your OS. On my own OS. :) I'm not touching anything 'Amiga' (just yet), until I verify a few things. And I definitely won't do it just to meet another person's challenge; that's not why one codes an OS in the first place. I wouldn't expect Amiga Inc. or Hyperion or anyone else to code based soley on even my challenges, just to prove something or otherwise. I know why I work on my OS, after all this time I'm not sure anymore why they work on theirs.

>Come back when you have something to demonstrate - then people might start
>believing you aren't another Peter.

See above.

>When you start talking about Amiga Inc being on the cover or TIME magazine
>and bringing down Microsoft you're not going to win yourself any credibility
>points.

It's not a game, Bill. :-)


>Nor will you get much co-operation by insulting people or trying to bully or
>shame them into worshipping you.

I'm quite sure you have me confused with someone else (especially the worshipping part).

There is no need to insult anyone, or to bully. And, really, shame is a value served and allowed upon oneself, usually for reasons or actions that go against what is known to be sincere.


>You need to demonstrate that you understand what you are proposing beyond the buzzowords, and you haven't done that despite going on ad nauseaum for years.

I have amply demonstrated it, to increasing avail. In the beginning, it was more difficult, as no one saw, wanted to see, or believed that I could have known what I was talking about. The internet is a vast and rather interesting 'free college' for ideas and research, and I have taken the opportunity to explore it with the result of gaining the knowledge I have (with the exokernel, for example). I don't believe in 'talking out one's ass', to be crude; I believe one talking or writing or communication should have some base of knowledge from which to speak. And I do have one. :) I looked into the exokernel, and I have an idea enough to know it is not only feasible for Amiga OS, but should really be pursued for the new OS. If that's nauseous for some, don't read my posts. :)

I will say this: Amiga Inc. has NEVER told me 'No' regarding the exokernel. (of course, I might then tell them they're going the wrong F-ing way, as I once told Bill McEwen, but hey...I'm nothing if not straightforward and honest). I think sometimes people want to work with me, but they're scared of what I might say--and I tell it like it is, without fear. But on the flipside, a point can be made: Do I really want to work with those who fear the truth? (says something about those who do fear it, and don't want to work with me). I won't cooperate in pathological lying.


>You attitude here is indicative of one of two possibilities: you are either
>(1) insane or (2) trolling. It is left to the reader;s discretion to decide
>which.

Oh, wow. Doctor Hoggett, is it? :) You're clinically-trained enough to say this?--let alone, sight-unseen; and malpractice issues aside. People who know me, know how humorous I am. And sometimes, I'm both telling-it-like-it-is AND being funny at the same time: like my sentiments for the AmigaOne's apparent demise or crash (as a path). I don't find it funny for those who bought into that and own one, and now have no support (allegedly so. If reports are to be believed), but aside from that, it's great news to hear that maybe Amiga OS is closer to x86-64, which is what I *truly believe* is the path for it. I make no apologies for that.


>The more you talk, the more I'm reminded of the VIC.

Yeah, people would like to liken me to *their idea* of someone else. Often, I find, these are straw man arguments (heck, it could work the exact opposite, with their logic employed: they could be telling this other guy "The more you talk, the more I'm reminded of EyeAm", in exactly the same straw man argument way). :) But it doesn't fly, Bill. And I have seen Tim Rue's website and photos of the VIC, and read up a little (but not a lot) on the idea, and I don't find much wrong with it. It's still a case of someone introducing something to this stubborn community that is new and provocative. Maybe it's people's nature not to want change--or a good percentage of people. Maybe you fit that profile. I don't. I'm not afraid of change, or exploring new ideas with a sense of adventure. It's what Amiga was about in the first place. If people put aside their biases in the face of ideas, they could quit insulting and making things *personal* and focus on the merit of an idea, and debate only that.

I don't think you really have a problem with the ideas I've introduced, I think you have a personal problem with me. :) Otherwise, you'd see the idea, shrug, make a comment, and move on. At least that's what I do when I see ideas that I don't think will fly at all. A lot of the time, I won't even comment on ideas I think are utter trash. I'll think to myself, "That'll never work," and go on to something else. Some ideas are just plain stupid. But I don't go insulting the person who posted it ("You stupid imbecile, what swamp rock did you drag that out from under? You're so ugly you couldn't think of a good idea if it wrapped itself around you and squeezed.")

>If you don't know what I'm talking about then perhaps you should do some
>research and find out.

Perhaps you should. I know exactly what you're on about, and I reject it. :)

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 90 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 24-May-2005 13:05:32
In Reply to Comment 87 (ChrisH):
>I was just about to mention the *similaries* to Tim Rue (and his VIC), when
>Bill went and did it for me! Of course this doesn't actually solve the
>problem, and will most likely make it worse (just look at how Tim behaved),
>but I'm not sure there ever was any solution to Tim Rue either - apart from
>telling other people to not reply to his loony posts...

Your characterization of me is wholly unfounded. In fact, all you (and others like you) post are accusations, insults, and unfounded characterizations, not addressing the well-researched and well-understood things which I post, but in fact ignoring them completely in a lame effort to troll and detract from the real value. :) That's what the truth is.


>That said, I'm not yet ready to say that Eye Am is *definitely* loony
>(i.e. seriously out of touch with reality) - he might just (1) be naive,
>(2) be easily excitable about cool ideas (which the Exokernel is), (3)
>have an unfortunate tendency to believe that it should be self-evident
>that his ideas are great (or take his word for it), and (4) have
>unreasonable expectations that everyone else should do his work for him...

Any reasonable, intelligent person (who, btw, wouldn't be insulting me) would of course check out the ideas I've introduced, if he didn't already know about them, or be able to discuss them coherently.

Regarding your "(4)" and "do his work for him"... Who said anything (but you) about my ideas being my work? :) I've made it abundantly clear that I am an end-user offering ideas (free, at that) to Amiga Inc. programmers, etc.

You probably don't like it, because I AM doing something, and may well be having an effect I'm going to like.


>I just wish that someone else would have seen how obviously right my own
>compiler/language is, as I didn't have any knowledge of writing compilers,
>and it'd have saved me (so far) 3 years of design & coding of the damn thing!

That's where we differ: I'm not wanting Amiga or others to code "my own" stuff for me (I'm doing that myself). The clarification is: I'm urging them to go down a certain path that they obviously haven't thought much about (until I put it together and introduced it to them). Many still cannot articulate the concepts I have introduced. But, if it were done, all of those who used Amiga OS could benefit, including myself. That's your only sense of them writing it 'for' me, because I'd use it. But that goes out the window in the face of them trying to code something that they hope I'd use, anyway. So it's a moot point, really. Others (and I don't know if you're that extreme) would wish to tell me I should do it all myself, for myself, even down to the forging of the CPU and CPU design and soldering and manufacture of the wafers, silicon, and so forth :) Ridiculous (and often hypocritical, considering everyone online has not done that, nor will they--and are right now using something someone ELSE created). No one here has created everything to get where you're at.

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 91 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 24-May-2005 13:13:33
In Reply to Comment 88 (ChrisH):
>That sounds *remarkably* like MorphOS... So you don't like how MorphOS does
>everything?

Fascinating leaps of 'assumption' there.

>Well, hard luck, because you weren't involved in writing it!

I know I was not involved in writing MorphOS (or stealing it, depending on the source you listen to). It was written (or stolen) by those who metaphorically pissed on Amiga Inc. from nearly the earliest possible point, because they weren't involved in writing THAT OS. "Tough titty," said the kitty, "but the milk is still good." Right? Still good enough to use Amiga stuff over there, eh? :)

>If you want something done exactly how you want it, then you're going to
>have to do it YOURSELF.

So are you. :)

And who says I'm not already doing just that?

>Cos thats what Ralph Schmidt did. And thats what the tiny AROS group did.
>Hell, it's what Linus Torvald did!

And it's what I'm doing: suggesting and offering and showing and even in some cases dictating to Amiga Inc. the path to go. They don't have to go that route, but failure after failure, they're beginning to look a little dumb not heeding sound and intelligent design, which is what I'm all about.

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 92 of 109
Posted by Bill Hoggett (80.46.207.80) on 24-May-2005 13:27:22
If only you had outlined an idea, it wouldn't be so bad. But you have done no such thing. You have just spouted on about the exokernel (fine, cool idea, but it isn't YOURS) and some vague x86-64 mention and more dual-core PPC/x86-64 stuff with extra cream on the pie-in-the-sky recipe.

Your ramblings are only slightly more coherent than Tim Rue's, but contain no more substance than his did.

It's a shame forums don't have e-mail style filters, because the phrase

*plonk*

comes to mind.

I wish "geniuses" with "idea factories", spent some time learning how to make a presentation and how to structure, research and reference their material before they start harrassing everyone in sight. What gives you the right to accuse people who don't take you seriously of dishonety or insincerity? Who have you "exposed" as what exactly? If you're failing to get through to people, and I suspect that's at least 99% of those reading this and other forums, then the problem is with you. People aren't mind-readers, and if you think your ideas are so obvious that anyone should see them then surely you wouldn't have to - someone else would have picked them up a long time ago.

I didn't suggest you develop stuff for my sake. I suggested it because your presentation skills are so poor you cannot get your point across, so perhaps a demonstration would do the job better. Your rambling comes across as mental diarrhoea; unless you fix that your target audience is going to switch off before they've finished reading the first sentence.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 93 of 109
Posted by Bernie Meyer (Registered user) on 24-May-2005 13:44:12
In Reply to Comment 90 (EyeAm):
>I'm urging them to go down a certain path that they obviously
>haven't thought much about

OK, I think everyone agrees that you have done all the lobbying anyone could ever want. You haven't created any converts. The odds of creating any converts by spouting "Exokernel" a few hundred times more are nil. So give up on the "urging" already, it's simply annoying.

Alternatively, you could do something constructive. You could take a step back and realize that you have preached your ideas to a whole lot of very intelligent people, and none of them "got it". Once, twice, that's a problem of the listener. But given the number of people you have preached to, and the complete lack of anyone getting it, that would suggest the problem may just be in the preaching.

To help you, I am now telling you why I don't get it. Why I don't share your enthusiasm and excitement. You might want to reflect on that, and then create a website that addresses these points, and brings across your message in a way that overcomes them. If you succeed in doing that, I may get it. Or I may give you more reasons of why I am not getting it. If, however, you find that you cannot make such a website, then you should reflect on whether you actually "got it".

So, here it is: You sound like someone who believes in top-down design, but hasn't quite understood it. You seem to have the top layer all thought out ("Use an exokernel, put all sorts of services and drivers underneath it to provide universal compatibility and reusability, and make it run classic Amiga stuff in an emulation service". That's great. But now that you have defined what you want to do, you have to define *how the hell this is going to work*. All I have ever seen from you is on the level of "We really should add full memory protection and resource tracking to AmigaOS, without sacrificing compatibility with the software base". It's a lofty goal, but unless you can explain HOW, it's nothing but a lot of hot air.

In particular, you keep talking about how your exokernel-based AmigaOS could just reuse linux drivers. Now, I have spent many hours, days, weeks digging through the linux kernel, and I know it's a damn interwoven thing. Linux drivers do not exist in a vacuum, they expect all sorts of supporting infrastructure, from a PCI system that parses their device tables all the way to interrupt dispatchers that call their handler routines at the right time. And they expect these things to happen under quite well-defined conditions. In other words, linux drivers work in a linux kernel, and not in anything else. While several other OSs have linux ABI emulation layers for userspace code, none to my knowledge can load linux drivers. Yet you somehow suggest that your path would succeed where others have failed. You may be right, but you will never convince anyone by saying "It is so!" and leave it at that.

Similarly, existing 68k Amiga applications have a nasty habit of looking at and playing with system-internal data structures. Messages get passed by pointer. And yet, you are suggesting that there would be no problem interfacing between hypothetical native x86_64 EyeAmOS code (little endian) and legacy 68k code (big endian). How are you going to achieve that? I can think of several ways, but frankly, nothing that I wouldn't classify as an ugly hack. Yet you never mention such details, which leads me, personally, to suspect you never so much as considered them.

The list goes on and on; You claim all sorts of very desirable things as a consequence of your vision, but you never explain how your vision would actually implement them, and overcome even the most obvious problems. What I hear from you is "We need to implement my PeaceInTheMiddleEast plan, or the whole region is just going to go to shits. It involves getting rid of the conflicts between Jews and Arabs, and negotiating a peaceful coexistence of the various minority groups. Oh, and give everyone a free Toyota Prius, of course".

There are, in my experience, two ways to convince someone like me that your ideas have merit. Either you explain them to me in a way which allows me to see the whole thing in my mind, including all the nitty gritty details that self-professed "ideas people" often prefer to glance over, OR (and I prefer this one) you simply shut up, get coding, and come back when you either have implemented it, or have found that you can't implement it for some reason. In the latter case, you can explain the reason, and hope that maybe someone else has a clever idea.

But please, stop evangelizing on a level so abstract it's nothing but annoying.

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 94 of 109
Posted by Jupp3 (82.141.71.213) on 24-May-2005 14:11:03
In Reply to Comment 93 (Bernie Meyer):
@Bernie Meyer

Very well said!

"Just my thoughts"

I have a small OS project too, but I chose the "get coding" -approach, not making much noise about it... And unlike some other projects, I honestly believe, that it can be done :)

On the other hand, maybe I'll add a cool prefix to the "kernel" which will make it 1600x faster than exokernel :D

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 95 of 109
Posted by anarkhos (24.20.233.105) on 24-May-2005 20:29:44
In Reply to Comment 93 (Bernie Meyer):
Hear hear!

I think EyeAm is waiting for the planets to align before his ideas self-manifest.

I too can dream of ugly hacks to catch when tasks are poking in areas they shouldn't. No kernel or virtualization makes this any easier. Explaining *how* to handle such situations shouldn't be a problem if one actually knows how.

Alright, I think we've all wasted enough bandwidth on this vocal singularity :-\

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 96 of 109
Posted by mdma (62.252.192.12) on 24-May-2005 23:57:37
In Reply to Comment 95 (anarkhos):
@ALL

Is it Sammy's day off or something? ;-)

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 97 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 25-May-2005 02:14:22
In Reply to Comment 92 (Bill Hoggett):
>If only you had outlined an idea, it wouldn't be so bad. But you have done
>no such thing.

I most definitely outlined the idea and elaborated on the very specific particulars of everything I ever outlined. :-) I don't know where you were, when I did so--perhaps sleeping or drinking beer somewhere?


>You have just spouted on about the exokernel (fine, cool idea, but it isn't
>YOURS) and some vague x86-64 mention and more dual-core PPC/x86-64 stuff
>with extra cream on the pie-in-the-sky recipe.

I really get under your skin, don't I? Good. :) If I bother you so much, don't read my posts. Just that simple, Bill Hoggett.


>Your ramblings are only slightly more coherent than Tim Rue's, but contain
>no more substance than his did.

Same for yours. You're rather a bitter and caustic person. I, myself, am not. I know what I'm talking about, and communicate rather intelligently. :)


>It's a shame forums don't have e-mail style filters, because the phrase
>*plonk* comes to mind.

I know. I wish they had features like this, so I could just *plonk* you and your wild ramblings and spoutings would be ignored. No more din of confusion, where others make more sense and are more polite than you.

>I wish "geniuses" with "idea factories", spent some time learning how to
>make a presentation and how to structure, research and reference their
>material before they start harrassing everyone in sight.

I wish "idiots" would shut up and quit bullying and harassing "geniuses" with "idea factories". :-D Geniuses like me would get a whole lot more done.

>What gives you the right to accuse people who don't take you seriously of
>dishonety or insincerity?

Because they're fake and insincere people who pretend to listen but don't?


>Who have you "exposed" as what exactly? If you're failing to get through
>to people, and I suspect that's at least 99% of those reading this and
>other forums, then the problem is with you. People aren't mind-readers,
>and if you think your ideas are so obvious that anyone should see them
>then surely you wouldn't have to - someone else would have picked them
>up a long time ago.

I know a fake when I see one. I know a bad product when I see one. I know enough to stay away from and not buy into charlatans and organized crime. And the only reason I repeat, with variety of approaches, is so that understanding is ultimately achieved (regarding the exokernel-based Amiga OS idea).

My mistake is probably treating everyone equally and at my level of intelligence; as I am constantly saddened that the reality is often below it.


>I didn't suggest you develop stuff for my sake. I suggested it because your
>presentation skills are so poor you cannot get your point across, so perhaps
>a demonstration would do the job better. Your rambling comes across as
>mental diarrhoea; unless you fix that your target audience is going to
>switch off before they've finished reading the first sentence.

Well, that's a personal problem, and not mine. :) If people don't look beyond their own hatred or displeasure at something, they're not going to learn anything. My presentation skills are fine.

Again, Bill Hoggett, if you consider me a nut and the ideas (what *little* you've gleaned from anything I've posted), just move along. :)

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 98 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 25-May-2005 03:16:13
In Reply to Comment 93 (Bernie Meyer):
>OK, I think everyone agrees that you have done all the lobbying anyone could
>ever want. You haven't created any converts. The odds of creating any
>converts by spouting "Exokernel" a few hundred times more are nil. So give
>up on the "urging" already, it's simply annoying.

You haven't exactly created a stellar path of success, yourself, Bernie. :) What happened to what you created, huh?

>Alternatively, you could do something constructive.

I'm doing something constructive. :)

>You could take a step back and realize that you have preached your ideas
>to a whole lot of very intelligent people, and none of them "got it".
>Once, twice, that's a problem of the listener. But given the number of
>people you have preached to, and the complete lack of anyone getting it,
>that would suggest the problem may just be in the preaching.

I'll keep trying. :)


>To help you, I am now telling you why I don't get it. Why I don't share
>your enthusiasm and excitement. You might want to reflect on that, and
>then create a website that addresses these points, and brings across your
>message in a way that overcomes them. If you succeed in doing that, I may
>get it. Or I may give you more reasons of why I am not getting it.

That last line is exactly what you'd do. I sent you the graphics--check your damn email for once.

>If, however, you find that you cannot make such a website, then you should
>reflect on whether you actually "got it".

Well, there's evidence you've never seen my website. Heh. Another thing I'm hardly deficient in doing.


>So, here it is: You sound like someone who believes in top-down design,
>but hasn't quite understood it. You seem to have the top layer all thought
>out ("Use an exokernel, put all sorts of services and drivers underneath
>it to provide universal compatibility and reusability, and make it run
>classic Amiga stuff in an emulation service". That's great. But now that
>you have defined what you want to do, you have to define *how the hell
>this is going to work*. All I have ever seen from you is on the level of
>"We really should add full memory protection and resource tracking to
>AmigaOS, without sacrificing compatibility with the software base". It's
>a lofty goal, but unless you can explain HOW, it's nothing but a lot of
>hot air.

I am an end-user. :) I started out an end-user. Sure, I know a whole lot more now than I ever did, and I see no reason why my stance as always-a-student should ever stop. At the same time, I can easily impart to others what I have learned, and wouldn't dare to try to do that regarding something I don't know. I have never crossed that line; although I'm not afraid to in the effort to learn something.

Now, most of what you just said in that paragraph isn't at all what I've relayed. For example, regarding 'emulation', that is something of last resort (you know, I've posted a time or two how Amiga should 'not emulate what it owns'--as in, it's not so elegant to have an Amiga emulator per se within an Amiga OS). But, I have also amply explained that the new Amiga OS I envision is necessarily a fresh start on 64-bit, which the old Amiga OS (Classic) isn't. It would be nice to see the Classic run more-or-less in an 'apparently native' manner. If that can't be done, so be it. The less one must 'log into' some app, in order to boot up the Classic (within the new Amiga OS), and *then* still load a Classic app, the better off it is. Further clarification of this might read: When in the new Amiga OS, it would be nice to simply load up a Classic program as if it's one of the new Amiga OS's apps, instead of seeing all this visible interface and hoops one must go through in order to run it. :)

A point about me having a 'top-down' approach, I think that is completely wrong. I see the hardware as the extreme 'bottom', on top of which the bootloader (all the software of course on hard drive, to be painstakingly exact here) runs, then the exokernel, and then the OS/desktop/GUI. Bottom-up. Kernel Mode or Kernel Level on the bottom, above hardware (like the graphic I sent out to you and Amiga and Carl Sassenrath, perfectly illustrating how I see it). Within "User Space" or "User Level", there is our familiar partitions of Work: and System:. In the exokernel design, the 'kernel' does not manage the apps. The apps manage themselves (not magically, mind you--I'm not stupid, so I want you to understand I'm not thinking it's all magic and some wand is waved and it all 'just works'). This is the theory and active practice of an exokernel-based OS: that the apps manage themselves. In the Amiga OS, I'm sure a lot of the apps will do so with what's in System, as they always have, except there won't be any 'kernel modules' still tied to the kernel. It'll be more free than before. Apps can directly address the hardware, because the exokernel securely multiplexes the hardware to them. I could go on, but since you're so sincere and have already researched the exokernel like a good audience and programmer, there is no need, right? :) You've already checked out the MIT slideshow, read up on the exokernel as I have, and there is no need for me to impart that understanding to you. As a programmer, you surely already understand what the rest would be. A case of moving anything in the current kernel or System-dwelling kernel modules to a reality where the kernel no longer handles anything regarding resource management, but only concerns itself with resource protection (enter full memory protection, decrease in system overhead, a faster OS, and so on).


>In particular, you keep talking about how your exokernel-based AmigaOS could
>just reuse linux drivers. Now, I have spent many hours, days, weeks digging
>through the linux kernel, and I know it's a damn interwoven thing. Linux
>drivers do not exist in a vacuum, they expect all sorts of supporting
>infrastructure, from a PCI system that parses their device tables all the
>way to interrupt dispatchers that call their handler routines at the right
>time.

Sounds like Linux is poorly designed. A driver should be nothing more than an interface to a card--controls to a PCI or AGP card (or some other device) which the OS itself handles. Something simple. Remember, Elegance Through Simplicity (oh, I'm sorry if that's a little buzzworthy catch-phrase, but there's something call Philosophy would applies in many places in life, for a reason, and this is one of them).

>And they expect these things to happen under quite well-defined conditions.
>In other words, linux drivers work in a linux kernel, and not in anything
>else.

Oh. You mean like Amiga drivers in UAE or AmigaForever on top of some x86 machine, hosted in Linux or Windows, and accessing things not Amiga? Drivers are a means to an end, and there's no limit to the imagination. I fully explained the idea behind the Linux drivers, already, and how the concept of the new OS could handle them.

WINE uses the drivers of Windows programs, without Windows being present. The point being, again spelled out here, is that on one side of the Linux drivers, you're going to have the object/target of those drivers (PCI card, AGP card, device), and on the other side the OS. But see, in my idea, I'm replacing the normal OS with the new Amiga OS. This is very simplistic, so I get the same idea I have across to you. Amiga OS (in the place of Windows OS, or Linux OS--depending on which drivers we're talking about, and it doesn't really matter for this explanation) will have to address the driver (the controls of the card or device). If the Linux driver (as much as a driver can expect anything, being software) is expecting reach the Linux OS, it makes sense to have an interface/interpeter there which 'tricks it' into knowing no different, so that it still performs the same.

It's a whole lot easier, and simpler, to come up with that requisite interface/interpreter than it is to write a driver "for every single PCI or AGP card or device out there" (which is one of the main problems many have spouted off about when it comes to 'Amiga on x86'). :) A lot of people just won't think beyond 'we can't do that because (of this)'. They won't put their brain to the matter and come up with a solution that gets around the problem or goes through it. This is an IDEA. I'm sure there could be another idea, greater or lesser in validity, regarding Amiga using Linux drivers.

Do not trash someone because they offer an idea. Don't.


>While several other OSs have linux ABI emulation layers for userspace code,
>none to my knowledge can load linux drivers. Yet you somehow suggest that
>your path would succeed where others have failed. You may be right, but
>you will never convince anyone by saying "It is so!" and leave it at that.

Have you personally investigated any of these ideas? Have you disproven my 'theories'? ;-)

MIT runs exokernel-based OSes that run Unix programs unchanged on top of them. Linux, too. It turns OSes into 'applications'. Maybe a new Amiga OS could simply allow Linux to be installed and sit there, with the Amiga OS working through Linux stealthily to use drivers. Sounds like a lot of overhead to me, doing it that way, but as I said: maybe it could. As yet another way. The main point being there seems to always be some way to do something (or do something different than before, or better than before), and that it begs to be looked at sincerely.


>Similarly, existing 68k Amiga applications have a nasty habit of looking at
>and playing with system-internal data structures. Messages get passed by
>pointer. And yet, you are suggesting that there would be no problem
>interfacing between hypothetical native x86_64 EyeAmOS

There is no EyeAmOS.

>code (little endian) and legacy 68k code (big endian). How are you going to >achieve that? I can think of several ways, but frankly, nothing that I >wouldn't classify as an ugly hack. Yet you never mention such details,
>which leads me, personally, to suspect you never so much as considered them.

What isn't an 'ugly hack' about Amithlon? or UAE? or AmigaForever? or WINE?

I've looked at existing programs and their features. If it's been done elsewhere, it can be done here.

Here's one thing that somewhat applies: There was a paint/graphics program made for Windows 95/98 which I used at work quite a bit. When the computer got upgraded to Windows 2000, which uses the NT kernel and is of a different kernel and so forth than what came before, the program would not work. Obviously, it wasn't for Windows 2000. But there was a patch (some may call it a 'wrapper') that the company of the program wrote allowing it to run under Windows 2000. Works even now.

You know, I thought of this today: my Intuition level may be equal to some of the Amiga programmers' skill level; but a lot leads me to believe their Intuition is equal to my programming skill. I never professed to be a programmer before April 2001. I haven't been long into it.

I think my default perception is that another *will* 'get it'; and that many of you have the perception that I *don't* 'get it'. These are biases that will be adjusted :)


>The list goes on and on; You claim all sorts of very desirable things as a
>consequence of your vision, but you never explain how your vision would
>actually implement them, and overcome even the most obvious problems. What I
>hear from you is "We need to implement my PeaceInTheMiddleEast plan, or the
>whole region is just going to go to shits. It involves getting rid of the
>conflicts between Jews and Arabs, and negotiating a peaceful coexistence of
>the various minority groups. Oh, and give everyone a free Toyota Prius, of
>course".

Sarcasm won't win you any points with me.
(incidentally, I have a very specific plan regarding the so-called peace in the middle east, Israel and the Palestinians) :)

Let's see, what else did you really say in this paragraph. Nothing much. I could say that you claim all sorts of vague and general things including how my idea(s) can't be implemented, but you never say exactly how they can't, never give any kind of proper presentation to them, because probably you don't even understand what it is that I've been telling you (which of course goes back to you saying it is my fault for not making sure you understand--and truly is my fault for expecting you to be at the level of intelligence or understanding that I am...). So it's really a case of: "I don't get it (yet)."--Bernie


>There are, in my experience, two ways to convince someone like me that your
>ideas have merit. Either you explain them to me in a way which allows me to
>see the whole thing in my mind, including all the nitty gritty details that
>self-professed "ideas people" often prefer to glance over, OR (and I prefer
>this one) you simply shut up,

"I don't like you and I don't want to see your posts," said Bernie, "Because I don't want to like you, nor do I REALLY want to understand what you're going on about, because if I did other people would slag me for doing so and I've got my own ideas and they're superior, because I myself am the fabulous programmer of the ultra-successful Amithlon."--Bernie :)

>get coding, and come back when you either have implemented it, or have found
>that you can't implement it for some reason. In the latter case, you can
>explain the reason, and hope that maybe someone else has a clever idea.

<script>
Scene 1: EyeAm's explanation.
Scene 2: Bernie and others' sarcastic responses that EyeAm should explain.
Scene 3: EyeAm's alternative explanation, different view, variation.
Scene 4: Bernie and others' insults and demand to either shut up or explain.
Scene 5: EyeAm's continued and extended explanation.
Scene 6: Bernie and others' continued proclamations there is no explanations.
<end script>

That pretty much sums up the lack of trying on some people's part. :)

>But please, stop evangelizing on a level so abstract it's nothing but
>annoying.

'Stop' and 'shut up', right? :) That's all you care about.

My answer is, of course: you do the same, go on, move on, go away, and just don't respond or read my posts, because I'm going to continue being myself, and 'evangelizing' what Amiga will one day use in its OS (if it's to survive). :)

By the way: abstraction is removed from the exokernel. It's just not there. It's left to the apps, you know ;-)

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 99 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 25-May-2005 03:19:00
In Reply to Comment 94 (Jupp3):
>I have a small OS project too, but I chose the "get coding" -approach, not
>making much noise about it... And unlike some other projects, I honestly
>believe, that it can be done :)

Optimism is very useful. :) Congrats on your OS project. I hope yours is going as well as mine is.

>On the other hand, maybe I'll add a cool prefix to the "kernel" which will
>make it 1600x faster than exokernel :D

Go for it. (care to back up your assertion with proof?) :)

--EyeAm

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 What is happening to Amiga in general : Comment 100 of 109
Posted by EyeAm (68.59.54.5) on 25-May-2005 03:22:54
In Reply to Comment 95 (anarkhos):
>Hear hear!

Shouldn't that be listening but not hearing? ;-P


>I think EyeAm is waiting for the planets to align before his ideas
>self-manifest.

I do not believe in Luck. I believe in Merit. Only viable ideas can be put to work, only real OSes ship.


>I too can dream of ugly hacks to catch when tasks are poking in areas they
>shouldn't. No kernel or virtualization makes this any easier. Explaining
>*how* to handle such situations shouldn't be a problem if one actually
>knows how.

Nothing ugly or hackish about my proposal. I am against 'hack' kind of programming. I think things should be simple and elegant, and make sense.

For future note: nobody gives me an inch, I'm not going to give you a millimeter. :)


>Alright, I think we've all wasted enough bandwidth on this vocal singularity
> :-\

Good. Shut up. :)

--EyeAm

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